Wrfrgl. That is all I shall say with my current mood ingame at the moment.
Where was I? Oh....let's recap.
We'd started to develop Racial tactics for Skaven and Saurus (Skinks will happen when I look at either Healers or RDPS). We'd discovered that the resistance tactic is based on the most common damage type from the opposite in the pairing - not within the specific class, as in tank vs. tank but as a whole.
We looked at Empire vs. Chaos and found something that supported this.
More interestingly we'd discovered Mythic's 'skeleton' for each archetype in terms of damage types they dealt. Let's summarise that first.
Tanks: 95-100% Resisted damage type by opposite pairing.
Healers: 0% Resisted damage type by opposite pairing.
MDPS: 0% Resisted damage type by opposite pairing.
RDPS: 45-50% Resisted damage type by opposite pairing.
Now this makes sense. I think I can see where they're coming from. Tanks trade survivability for damage type resistance, same with MDPS (who are by far less survivable). Healers aren't damage dealers, even with the unresisted damage and RDPS is 50-50 to prevent them from completely dominating the field at range.
It could be argued that Range equals survivability so looking at this it seems to be on a Survivability-Damage ratio. The less survivable you are the deadlier you potentially are.
I'll chew on that later.
On with the racial comparisons!
High Elves and Dark Elves
Keeping the same format....
Dark Elf: BG- Abilities- None, Tactics- None (Oo-er.)
Dark Elf: DoK- Abilities- 2 Spirit, Tactics- None
Dark Elf: Sorc- Abilities- 12 Spirit, 12 Corporeal, Tactics- 1 Spirit, 1 Corporeal
Dark Elf: WE- Abilities- 7 Corporeal, 1 Spirit, Tactics- 1 Corporeal
21 Corporeal, 16 Spirit
.....I don't know what to say...so much for my earlier theory already. Though the structure seems the same...
High Elf: AM- Abilities- 11 Spirit, Tactics - 1 Spirit
High Elf: SM- Abilities- 9 Spirit, Tactics - 2 Spirit
High Elf: SW- Abilities- 1 Elemental, 1 Corporeal, Tactics - 1 Spirit
High Elf: WL- Abilities- 2 Spirit, Tactics- 1 Spirit
27 Spirit, 1 Elemental, 1 Corporeal
...In short....
What the fuck Mythic? What the fuck?
I suspect this has something to do with how the counterpart classes are spread across the board. They do seem to follow the normal pattern except in this case the MDPS is wholly resisted by the opposite faction. Unless....I'll explain the theory after looking at Dwarfs and Greenskins.
Dwarfs and Greenskins
Greenskin: BO- Abilities- 2 Corporeal, Tactics- None
Greenskin: Choppa- Abilities- None, Tactics- 1 Corporeal
Greenskin: Shaman- Abilities- 13 Elemental, Tactics- None
Greenskin: SH- Abilities- 1 Elemental, 2 Corporeal, Tactics- None
14 Elemental, 5 Corporeal
Dwarf: Engineer- Abilities- 14 Corporeal, Tactics- None
Dwarf: IB- Abilities- None, Tactics- None (Look familiar?)
Dwarf: RP- Abilities- 14 Elemental, Tactics- None
Dwarf: Slayer- Abilities- None, Tactics- 1 Corporeal (Again....)
15 Corporeal, 14 Elemental
Trust things to go awry with the normal class classifications...or do they?
We'd worked out the following...
Tanks (mainly) do a single damage type. This is true across the board.
Healers (mainly) do a single damage type. This is true across the board.
MDPS (mainly) do a single damage type. This is true across the board.
RDPS do approximately 50-50 for two damage types. The Engineer breaks this rule.
There were other factors - based on the resistance of the opposite faction. As you can now see this is not true. This breaks at so many different points. But what got me thinking is the fact that the counterpart classes are not always on the same faction. In the most extreme cases they're muddled up.
Let's work out a comparison chart of counterpart classes. In theory that will create three sets of pairings of their own. Then we'll look at the damage types for them and work that out.
Chosen = KotBS - Auras
Magus = Engineer - Turret Pets
Marauder = ???
Zealot = Runepriest - Blessings/Runes
Black Orc = Swordmaster - Stance-combo
Choppa = Slayer - Furious/Berserk
Shaman = Archmage - Pendulum Healing/Damage
Squig Herder = ???
Blackguard = Ironbreaker - Hate Pool
DoK = Warrior Priest - Healing Pool
Sorceress = Bright Wizard - Backlash mechanic
Witch Elf = Witch Hunter - Stealth and combos
Now as you can see, there are some that don't pair up so easily.
Marauders - Stance combat with mutations, MDPS
Squig Herders - Mobile Pet, Stance, RDPS
Shadow Warriors - Stance combat, Stealth, RDPS
White Lions- Mobile Pet, MDPS
These are all essentially mixed. Traditionally MDPS pairs with MDPS and RDPS pairs with RDPS, right? Similar attacks and trees and so on. But from this?
Marauder = Shadow Warrior
Squig Herder = White Lion
So let's look at our pairings. I chose to focus on Destruction out of natural bias...I want to see if these new pairings create some sort of resistance balance through the racial tactics.
Pool A
Chosen (9S, 1E) = KotBS (2 E)
Magus (14E, 13S) = Engineer (14C)
Marauder (2C, 1 E) = Shadow Warrior (1E, 1S, 1C)
Zealot (13C,1E)= Runepriest (14E)
(21S, 17E, 15C) = (17E, 15C, 1S)
So Chaos faces mainly Elemental damage in the comparisons...
Pool B
Black Orc (2C) = Swordmaster (11S)
Choppa (1C) = Slayer (1C)
Shaman (13E) = Archmage (12S)
Squig Herder (2C, 1E) = White Lion (3S)
(14E, 5C) = (26S, 1C)
Greenskins face mainly Spirit damage....
Pool C
Blackguard = Ironbreaker
DoK (2S) = Warrior Priest (3S)
Sorceress (13S, 13C) = Bright Wizard (15E, 10C)
Witch Elf (8C, 1S) = Witch Hunter (6S, 1C)
(21C, 16S) = (15E, 11C, 9S)
.....
And we thought we had found a pattern. And then a Bright Wizard screwed it up.
Have I mentioned I dislike Elves?
.....Wait, 2 out of 3 Destro races follow the rule. Let's do the same comparison for Order and hope the Elves don't screw it up. Or the BW. Forgive me for being lazy and copy-pasting here...read it like Manga and you'll be fine.
Empire
Sorceress (13S, 13C) = Bright Wizard (15E, 10C)
Chosen (9S, 1E) = KotBS (2 E)
Witch Elf (8C, 1S) = Witch Hunter (6S, 1C)
DoK (2S) = Warrior Priest (3S)
Ignoring one sides numbers completely.... (Arse, I ended up doing numbers after all).
(25S, 21C, 1E) - Excellent. It matches up.
Dwarfs
Magus (14E, 13S) = Engineer (14C)
Blackguard = Ironbreaker
Zealot (13C,1E)= Runepriest (14E)
Choppa (1C) = Slayer (1C)
(15E, 14C, 13S) ....So close....aha, but it includes Racial tactics! HAHA! .....That doesn't explain Dark Elves though....can we count this one because it's so very close? Please?
High Elves
Shaman (13E) = Archmage (12S)
Black Orc (2C) = Swordmaster (11S)
Marauder (2C, 1 E) = Shadow Warrior (1E, 1S, 1C)
Squig Herder (2C, 1E) = White Lion (3S)
(15E, 6C) - AHA! Even taking racial tactics away it still swings in the favour of it.
Lesson for today. Racial resistance is based on the most common damage type in the form of comparison vs. comparison, adjusted to match the racial pairing in the case of Dark Elves.
Bloody hells.
Maths is hard.
Also, a shout out to those newly added to the links to the right. Thanks for reading this guys.
OW. Brain hurts.
Sunday, 19 April 2009
Saturday, 18 April 2009
Setting The Stones: Class Layouts and Tactics
Ok. To summarise what we have so far-
Class Mechanic
Saurus Guardian - Spawned to Protect (Class Mechanic)
Skaven Stormvermin- Packleader (Class Mechanic)
Spawned to Protect: The Saurus Guardian gains a scaling Armor and Resistance bonus based on the number of party members within 30 feet, up to a maximum of five. In addition they gain other scaling, stacking bonuses based on the 'roles' of their groupmates. Tanks will grant an increase to Strength, Melee DPS will grant an increase to Toughness, Ranged DPS will grant an increase to Weapon Skill and Healers will grant an increase to Wounds.
Packleader: The Stormvermin gains a scaling damage bonus based on the number of party members within 30 feet, up to a maximum of five. In addition they gain other scaling, stacking bonuses based on the 'roles' of their groupmates. Tanks will grant an increase to Strength, Melee DPS will grant an increase to Toughness, Ranged DPS will grant an increase to Weapon Skill and Healers will grant an increase to Wounds.
Mastery Trees
Saurus Guardians have the following three Mastery trees.
The Path of Sotek- A mastery path focused on aggression and ferocity.
The Path of Quetzl- A mastery path focused on stoic defence.
The Path of Tepok- A mastery path focused on breaking hostile magics.
Stormvermin have the following three Mastery tree.
The Path of Glory- A mastery path focused on glory-glory in offense!
The Path of Caution- A mastery path focused on cautious defense.
The Path of Cunning- A mastery path focused on cunningly thwarting magic and weakening the enemy.
Now we'll look at the other classes again - this time with racial tactics.
Black Orc- I'm Da Biggest (Wounds), Don't Bother Me None (Resistance), Stab You Gooder (+Damage)
Blackguard- Alignment of Naggaroth (Resistance), Bathing in Blood (Healing), Dark Blessings (+Heal)
Chosen - Backlash (Proc-Damage), Tzeentch's Warding (Resistance), Warped Flesh (Proc-Absorb).
Ironbreaker- Stoutness of Stone (CC Resistance), Stubborness (Resistance), Ancestral Inheritance (Armor)
KotBS- Sigmar's Favor (Proc-Heal), Unwavering Faith (Resistance), Emperor's Ward (Proc-Absorb)
Swordmaster- Centuries of Training (Proc-Damage), Bend the Winds (Resistance), Discerning Offense (Reduced Defense - sort of +Damage)
Hmm. This is odd. I was hoping for some more consistency in these tactics across the board but there isn't any. Well, not by class anyhow. Looking at it there isn't anything by race either. The only constant is +Resistance to a certain type of magical damage which I will look at in a moment.
Racial tactics are in theory common across the entire race - having checked this I can confirm this is correct.Goblins and Orcs count as different races thus have different racial tactics. In this respect Skinks and Saurus will have different tactics. The racial tactics have no real similarities apart from a universal +Resistance.
So let's make a note of that.
3 Tactics - +Resistance, ???, ???
Let's have a look at the respective pairings.
High Elves and Dark Elves.
The racial tactics for these two races seem to match up best. The High Elf racial tactics are very aggressive - Proc-Damage and Reduced Defense which is effectively +Damage. The Dark Elf tactics in respect are defensive - Both +Healing either from a source or following a kill. This is a simple pairing - 2 aggressive and 2 defensive tactics.
Empire and Chaos
This is more complicated. Chaos tactics are defensive to be honest. The proc-Absorb and the proc-Damage both depend on being attacked. The Empire tactics are also defensive. Proc-Absorb, proc-+Healing. Defensive and defensive.
Dwarfs and Greenskins (Orcs)
These are all straight increases. For Dwarfs it's Armor and resistance to crowd control, both defensive. For Orcs it's Wounds, which is essential to offensive playstyles - so aggressive and increased crit damage. So in this case it's Defensive and Aggressive.
Hmm.
We have 2 Aggressive vs. 2 Defensive - this appears twice on the racial tactics.
We have one Defensive vs. Defensive.
For Lizardmen and Skaven it opens a new, lore-friendly window.
Aggressive and Aggressive. Both races utterly loathe one another...even their 'favoured' gods are natural enemies...the rat and the serpent. So let's reflect that in their tactics.
Lizardmen - Resistance, Aggressive, Aggressive
Skaven - Resistance, Aggressive, Aggressive
Racial Resistances
Every race has a single resistance tactic. Now to have a look to see if there is a pattern.
Chaos - Elemental
Dark Elf- Spirit
Dwarf- Corporeal
Empire- Spirit
Greenskin- Spirit
High Elf- Elemental
Order - 1 Corporeal, 1 Elemental, 1 Spiritual
Destruction- 2 Spiritual, 1 Elemental
I have a theory. I suspect the damage resistance is based on the most 'common' typed damage from the opposing faction. Let's do a quick count. Forgive me if I abbreviate, this is just a quick count of what's there.
Chaos: Chosen - Abilities - 9 Spirit, Tactics- 1 Elemental
Chaos: Marauder- Abilities- 2 Corporeal, Tactics- 1 Elemental
Chaos: Magus- Abilities- 13 Spirit, 13 Elemental, Tactics- 1 Elemental
Chaos: Zealot- Abilities - 11 Corporeal, Tactics - 2 Corporeal, 1 Elemental
22 Spirit, 17 Elemental, 15 Corporeal
Empire: BW- Abilities- 13 Elemental, 10 Corporeal, Tactics- 2 Elemental
Empire: KOTBS- Abilities- 1 Elemental, Tactics- 1 Elemental
Empire: WH- Abilities- 6 Spirit, Tactics- 1 Corporeal
Empire: WP- Abilities- 2 Spirit, Tactics- 1 Spirit
17 Elemental, 11 Corporeal, 9 Spirit
Ok. That's odd. But it adds up. The most common damage type, at least with Empire and Chaos is the one that the resistance is against. From this pairing I've learned that MDPS and Healers do damage other than the resistance (and seem to have none of the resisted type for their pairing) and RDPS is a mix of approximately 50%.
I'll look at the other classes and pairings later on. What we learn from this, eh?
Class Mechanic
Saurus Guardian - Spawned to Protect (Class Mechanic)
Skaven Stormvermin- Packleader (Class Mechanic)
Spawned to Protect: The Saurus Guardian gains a scaling Armor and Resistance bonus based on the number of party members within 30 feet, up to a maximum of five. In addition they gain other scaling, stacking bonuses based on the 'roles' of their groupmates. Tanks will grant an increase to Strength, Melee DPS will grant an increase to Toughness, Ranged DPS will grant an increase to Weapon Skill and Healers will grant an increase to Wounds.
Packleader: The Stormvermin gains a scaling damage bonus based on the number of party members within 30 feet, up to a maximum of five. In addition they gain other scaling, stacking bonuses based on the 'roles' of their groupmates. Tanks will grant an increase to Strength, Melee DPS will grant an increase to Toughness, Ranged DPS will grant an increase to Weapon Skill and Healers will grant an increase to Wounds.
Mastery Trees
Saurus Guardians have the following three Mastery trees.
The Path of Sotek- A mastery path focused on aggression and ferocity.
The Path of Quetzl- A mastery path focused on stoic defence.
The Path of Tepok- A mastery path focused on breaking hostile magics.
Stormvermin have the following three Mastery tree.
The Path of Glory- A mastery path focused on glory-glory in offense!
The Path of Caution- A mastery path focused on cautious defense.
The Path of Cunning- A mastery path focused on cunningly thwarting magic and weakening the enemy.
Now we'll look at the other classes again - this time with racial tactics.
Black Orc- I'm Da Biggest (Wounds), Don't Bother Me None (Resistance), Stab You Gooder (+Damage)
Blackguard- Alignment of Naggaroth (Resistance), Bathing in Blood (Healing), Dark Blessings (+Heal)
Chosen - Backlash (Proc-Damage), Tzeentch's Warding (Resistance), Warped Flesh (Proc-Absorb).
Ironbreaker- Stoutness of Stone (CC Resistance), Stubborness (Resistance), Ancestral Inheritance (Armor)
KotBS- Sigmar's Favor (Proc-Heal), Unwavering Faith (Resistance), Emperor's Ward (Proc-Absorb)
Swordmaster- Centuries of Training (Proc-Damage), Bend the Winds (Resistance), Discerning Offense (Reduced Defense - sort of +Damage)
Hmm. This is odd. I was hoping for some more consistency in these tactics across the board but there isn't any. Well, not by class anyhow. Looking at it there isn't anything by race either. The only constant is +Resistance to a certain type of magical damage which I will look at in a moment.
Racial tactics are in theory common across the entire race - having checked this I can confirm this is correct.Goblins and Orcs count as different races thus have different racial tactics. In this respect Skinks and Saurus will have different tactics. The racial tactics have no real similarities apart from a universal +Resistance.
So let's make a note of that.
3 Tactics - +Resistance, ???, ???
Let's have a look at the respective pairings.
High Elves and Dark Elves.
The racial tactics for these two races seem to match up best. The High Elf racial tactics are very aggressive - Proc-Damage and Reduced Defense which is effectively +Damage. The Dark Elf tactics in respect are defensive - Both +Healing either from a source or following a kill. This is a simple pairing - 2 aggressive and 2 defensive tactics.
Empire and Chaos
This is more complicated. Chaos tactics are defensive to be honest. The proc-Absorb and the proc-Damage both depend on being attacked. The Empire tactics are also defensive. Proc-Absorb, proc-+Healing. Defensive and defensive.
Dwarfs and Greenskins (Orcs)
These are all straight increases. For Dwarfs it's Armor and resistance to crowd control, both defensive. For Orcs it's Wounds, which is essential to offensive playstyles - so aggressive and increased crit damage. So in this case it's Defensive and Aggressive.
Hmm.
We have 2 Aggressive vs. 2 Defensive - this appears twice on the racial tactics.
We have one Defensive vs. Defensive.
For Lizardmen and Skaven it opens a new, lore-friendly window.
Aggressive and Aggressive. Both races utterly loathe one another...even their 'favoured' gods are natural enemies...the rat and the serpent. So let's reflect that in their tactics.
Lizardmen - Resistance, Aggressive, Aggressive
Skaven - Resistance, Aggressive, Aggressive
Racial Resistances
Every race has a single resistance tactic. Now to have a look to see if there is a pattern.
Chaos - Elemental
Dark Elf- Spirit
Dwarf- Corporeal
Empire- Spirit
Greenskin- Spirit
High Elf- Elemental
Order - 1 Corporeal, 1 Elemental, 1 Spiritual
Destruction- 2 Spiritual, 1 Elemental
I have a theory. I suspect the damage resistance is based on the most 'common' typed damage from the opposing faction. Let's do a quick count. Forgive me if I abbreviate, this is just a quick count of what's there.
Chaos: Chosen - Abilities - 9 Spirit, Tactics- 1 Elemental
Chaos: Marauder- Abilities- 2 Corporeal, Tactics- 1 Elemental
Chaos: Magus- Abilities- 13 Spirit, 13 Elemental, Tactics- 1 Elemental
Chaos: Zealot- Abilities - 11 Corporeal, Tactics - 2 Corporeal, 1 Elemental
22 Spirit, 17 Elemental, 15 Corporeal
Empire: BW- Abilities- 13 Elemental, 10 Corporeal, Tactics- 2 Elemental
Empire: KOTBS- Abilities- 1 Elemental, Tactics- 1 Elemental
Empire: WH- Abilities- 6 Spirit, Tactics- 1 Corporeal
Empire: WP- Abilities- 2 Spirit, Tactics- 1 Spirit
17 Elemental, 11 Corporeal, 9 Spirit
Ok. That's odd. But it adds up. The most common damage type, at least with Empire and Chaos is the one that the resistance is against. From this pairing I've learned that MDPS and Healers do damage other than the resistance (and seem to have none of the resisted type for their pairing) and RDPS is a mix of approximately 50%.
I'll look at the other classes and pairings later on. What we learn from this, eh?
Sunday, 12 April 2009
Origin Point
Hmm. The part of me that my common sense resides in informs me that leaping head-on into the way of designing four whole classes at the same time may be a bit too bold. Probably better to take them one at a time.
So that is clearly the way forward.
One thing I have found with WAR is that the tank classes seem to be the most iconic in appearance for their race. Ironbreakers, Swordmasters, KotBS, Chosen, Black Orcs and Blackguards all appear to be the closest to the generic soldiery of their race and if you look you'll notice the leaders all seem to be tank types in appearance.
So let us take the humble Tank archetype and develop it for both the Lizardmen and the Skaven.
With all tanks there are three common Mastery trees. One focused on damage, one focused on defense and one focused on disruption. I see no reason why this should change for the Saurus Guardian and Skaven Stormvermin.
Let's start with something small. Names.
Damage Mastery - The Path of Sotek/Glory
Defensive Mastery- The Path of Quetzl/Caution
Disruptive Mastery - The Path of Tepok/Cunning
These names are thematic to me. The Saurus Guardian paths all come after the Old Ones - Sotek being the aggressive, warlike serpent god, Quetzl being a god of protection and Tepok being the wise god of magic. The Stormvermin paths are influenced by the way Skaven speak and think. You'll have noticed Skaven tend to emphasise themselves by repeating something multiple times in the same sentence, often right together. 'Die-die man thing!!' Skaven also don't hold much for religion or philosophy. So the Mastery names are simple concepts that you can imagine Skaven sticking to. Glory-glory! Caution! Cunning-cunning am I!
That was the simple bit. Now for some more complicated rambling and thoughts.
Each of the paired tank classes has a mechanic mirrored in the opposite faction. Now unfortunately with 3 main races it's impossible to have loose ends...and as you will notice the mirrors are not identical to eachother. With the Lizardmen and Skaven this will not be the case. First, a summary.
High Elf Swordmasters and Black Orcs - Stances. The mechanic is a simple one, attacks lead from no stance to A, B and C which in turn unlock more powerful attacks and abilities. More often than not Stance C's attacks are the hardest hitting but cost less or no Action Points to compensate for the fact you have to get there first.
Dwarf Ironbreakers and Dark Elf Blackguards- 'Hate'. This mechanic is probably the most complicated of the current tanks. Attacking and being attacked generates a pool of Hate points. A number of their abilities, offensive and defensive cost Hate, reducing the pool of Hate points. These abilities are more potent and with some tactics and stances the Hate pool affects how powerful an attack or ability is.
Knights of the Blazing Sun and Chaos Chosen- Auras. This mechanic is the most simple as it is not dependant on a series of circumstances or events being met to function whereas stances and the Hate pool do. This mechanic functions as a buff/debuff mechanic and works, quite simply by the class having a number of toggle auras that can be turned on and off, lasting an amount of time before fading. These auras include Strength (buff/debuff), Toughness (b/d), Resistance (b/d), Damage, Disrupt (debuff), Healing Disrupt. These auras affect team-mates as well in some cases and make the tank ideal for support roles.
Now, in other games I've played these mechanics are not uncommon. Let's take Guild Wars as an example. Stances come into play with the Assassin class where attacks work on chains and you need to get from A to B to C. Hate comes into play with the Warrior class in the form of the Adrenalin pool where abilities require X adrenalin to be used and it builds up in combat. The Auras come into play with the Dervish Class or even the Ranger stances.
Another game - City of Heroes/Villains. Stances come into play with the Dual Blades powerset where A leads to B which leads to C. Auras are a common feature of the whole game and the 'Hate' pool was present in the old Blaster defiance.
So my idea for a mechanic for Guardians and Stormvermin is found in other games as well. Mainly in City of Heroes with the Kheldians.
Spawned to Protect/Packleaders
The difference between Lizardmen and Skaven will be simple. Lizardmen as a whole will be more defensively orientated while Skaven are more aggressive. Applying this will be simple enough.
Let's discuss the mechanic first. The idea behind this mechanic is that these Tank classes are team-players. It is a scaling, passive buff that works on a pendulum based on the number of friendly players within 30 feet of them. In the case of the Saurus Guardian Toughness and Wounds will scale up whereas with the Stormvermin Weapon Skill and Strength will scale.
The idea is simple- the more allies around them the more resilient the Saurus gets and the more aggressive the Skaven becomes. Does this create a balance issue? Hmm. Well, this could lead to Saurus Shield-walls that are ridiculously hard to kill and Skaven linebreakers that demolish other tanks. So we'd have to cap the number of people that can affect this. Let's cap it to 6 - the size of a normal party.
Now this can remain as simple as this or it can be more complicated. Different attributes could scale based on the Archetypes of the allies. If this were the case then I'd suggest the following in addition - For Saurus make it +Armor/Resist and for Stormvermin +Damage.
Tanks could cause Strength to scale.
MDPS could cause Toughness to scale.
Healers could cause Wounds to scale.
RDPS could cause Weapon Skill to scale.
So the average City Dungeon run....
*
Tank
Healer
Healer
RDPS
MDPS
Would grant the Guardian/Stormvermin the following - +Strength, 2 x +Wounds, + Weapon Skill and +Toughness. This could lead to people tweaking groups. An all tank group would grant a potential 5 x +Strength to 6 tanks. With Stormvermin this makes them a linebreaker force...but we all know that there are obvious weaknesses running like that.
To go with the Mechanic we need to look at Weapon Proficiencies as well.
Every Tank has the Shield as an option.
Black Orc- Axe, Sword, Great Weapon, Heavy Armor - not too sure if Black Orcs get Dual Wield..confirmation would be nice.
Black Guard- Sword, Spear, Great Weapon, Heavy Armor
Chosen - Axe, Sword, Great Weapon, Heavy Armor
Ironbreaker - Axe, Hammer, Great Weapon, Heavy Armor
KotBS- Sword, Great Weapon, Staff, Heavy Armor - again, dual wield?
Swordmaster- Sword, Great Weapon, Heavy Armor
So let's look at what lorewise would go best for these new races. Taking appearance into account I'd go with the following...
Saurus Guardian- Axe, Sword, Great Weapon, Heavy Armor (Note: Medium Armor if the second option is chosen for class mechanic!) - The great weapon Axes would look more like Halberds here and there would probably be some single handed ones out there.
Stormvermin- Sword, Spear, Great Weapon, Heavy Armor
Well, only brief but that's a meaty enough start. A summary. We have Mastery tree names, a mechanic and weapon proficiencies for our two new tanks. Next post will develop it a bit more by looking at racial tactics and discussing common sense...
So that is clearly the way forward.
One thing I have found with WAR is that the tank classes seem to be the most iconic in appearance for their race. Ironbreakers, Swordmasters, KotBS, Chosen, Black Orcs and Blackguards all appear to be the closest to the generic soldiery of their race and if you look you'll notice the leaders all seem to be tank types in appearance.
So let us take the humble Tank archetype and develop it for both the Lizardmen and the Skaven.
With all tanks there are three common Mastery trees. One focused on damage, one focused on defense and one focused on disruption. I see no reason why this should change for the Saurus Guardian and Skaven Stormvermin.
Let's start with something small. Names.
Damage Mastery - The Path of Sotek/Glory
Defensive Mastery- The Path of Quetzl/Caution
Disruptive Mastery - The Path of Tepok/Cunning
These names are thematic to me. The Saurus Guardian paths all come after the Old Ones - Sotek being the aggressive, warlike serpent god, Quetzl being a god of protection and Tepok being the wise god of magic. The Stormvermin paths are influenced by the way Skaven speak and think. You'll have noticed Skaven tend to emphasise themselves by repeating something multiple times in the same sentence, often right together. 'Die-die man thing!!' Skaven also don't hold much for religion or philosophy. So the Mastery names are simple concepts that you can imagine Skaven sticking to. Glory-glory! Caution! Cunning-cunning am I!
That was the simple bit. Now for some more complicated rambling and thoughts.
Each of the paired tank classes has a mechanic mirrored in the opposite faction. Now unfortunately with 3 main races it's impossible to have loose ends...and as you will notice the mirrors are not identical to eachother. With the Lizardmen and Skaven this will not be the case. First, a summary.
High Elf Swordmasters and Black Orcs - Stances. The mechanic is a simple one, attacks lead from no stance to A, B and C which in turn unlock more powerful attacks and abilities. More often than not Stance C's attacks are the hardest hitting but cost less or no Action Points to compensate for the fact you have to get there first.
Dwarf Ironbreakers and Dark Elf Blackguards- 'Hate'. This mechanic is probably the most complicated of the current tanks. Attacking and being attacked generates a pool of Hate points. A number of their abilities, offensive and defensive cost Hate, reducing the pool of Hate points. These abilities are more potent and with some tactics and stances the Hate pool affects how powerful an attack or ability is.
Knights of the Blazing Sun and Chaos Chosen- Auras. This mechanic is the most simple as it is not dependant on a series of circumstances or events being met to function whereas stances and the Hate pool do. This mechanic functions as a buff/debuff mechanic and works, quite simply by the class having a number of toggle auras that can be turned on and off, lasting an amount of time before fading. These auras include Strength (buff/debuff), Toughness (b/d), Resistance (b/d), Damage, Disrupt (debuff), Healing Disrupt. These auras affect team-mates as well in some cases and make the tank ideal for support roles.
Now, in other games I've played these mechanics are not uncommon. Let's take Guild Wars as an example. Stances come into play with the Assassin class where attacks work on chains and you need to get from A to B to C. Hate comes into play with the Warrior class in the form of the Adrenalin pool where abilities require X adrenalin to be used and it builds up in combat. The Auras come into play with the Dervish Class or even the Ranger stances.
Another game - City of Heroes/Villains. Stances come into play with the Dual Blades powerset where A leads to B which leads to C. Auras are a common feature of the whole game and the 'Hate' pool was present in the old Blaster defiance.
So my idea for a mechanic for Guardians and Stormvermin is found in other games as well. Mainly in City of Heroes with the Kheldians.
Spawned to Protect/Packleaders
The difference between Lizardmen and Skaven will be simple. Lizardmen as a whole will be more defensively orientated while Skaven are more aggressive. Applying this will be simple enough.
Let's discuss the mechanic first. The idea behind this mechanic is that these Tank classes are team-players. It is a scaling, passive buff that works on a pendulum based on the number of friendly players within 30 feet of them. In the case of the Saurus Guardian Toughness and Wounds will scale up whereas with the Stormvermin Weapon Skill and Strength will scale.
The idea is simple- the more allies around them the more resilient the Saurus gets and the more aggressive the Skaven becomes. Does this create a balance issue? Hmm. Well, this could lead to Saurus Shield-walls that are ridiculously hard to kill and Skaven linebreakers that demolish other tanks. So we'd have to cap the number of people that can affect this. Let's cap it to 6 - the size of a normal party.
Now this can remain as simple as this or it can be more complicated. Different attributes could scale based on the Archetypes of the allies. If this were the case then I'd suggest the following in addition - For Saurus make it +Armor/Resist and for Stormvermin +Damage.
Tanks could cause Strength to scale.
MDPS could cause Toughness to scale.
Healers could cause Wounds to scale.
RDPS could cause Weapon Skill to scale.
So the average City Dungeon run....
*
Tank
Healer
Healer
RDPS
MDPS
Would grant the Guardian/Stormvermin the following - +Strength, 2 x +Wounds, + Weapon Skill and +Toughness. This could lead to people tweaking groups. An all tank group would grant a potential 5 x +Strength to 6 tanks. With Stormvermin this makes them a linebreaker force...but we all know that there are obvious weaknesses running like that.
To go with the Mechanic we need to look at Weapon Proficiencies as well.
Every Tank has the Shield as an option.
Black Orc- Axe, Sword, Great Weapon, Heavy Armor - not too sure if Black Orcs get Dual Wield..confirmation would be nice.
Black Guard- Sword, Spear, Great Weapon, Heavy Armor
Chosen - Axe, Sword, Great Weapon, Heavy Armor
Ironbreaker - Axe, Hammer, Great Weapon, Heavy Armor
KotBS- Sword, Great Weapon, Staff, Heavy Armor - again, dual wield?
Swordmaster- Sword, Great Weapon, Heavy Armor
So let's look at what lorewise would go best for these new races. Taking appearance into account I'd go with the following...
Saurus Guardian- Axe, Sword, Great Weapon, Heavy Armor (Note: Medium Armor if the second option is chosen for class mechanic!) - The great weapon Axes would look more like Halberds here and there would probably be some single handed ones out there.
Stormvermin- Sword, Spear, Great Weapon, Heavy Armor
Well, only brief but that's a meaty enough start. A summary. We have Mastery tree names, a mechanic and weapon proficiencies for our two new tanks. Next post will develop it a bit more by looking at racial tactics and discussing common sense...
The Portents of the Stars
Well, I finally bit the bullet. I've decided to finally make the blog and get to putting these ideas constantly running through my head down on paper so that, perhaps, someone will notice them and one day I may see many a happy spawning running around in game...though ultimately it would be a pain in the ass for me being a Destro player...
But enough of my grumbles. First I will put up the original posts that had people liking the ideas and inspired me to actually work a bit more on them. Bear in mind that I'm not a natural number-cruncher. These ideas will not include exact numbers though if someone would like to volunteer to assist when it gets to that, feel free!
So, on to the original posts.
From the Warhammer Online Official Forums on February 22nd, 2009. (Post No. 65)
Hmm. To be honest folks new races will come in pairings. If they come with new realms/storylines the better.
To go with the Lizardmen vs. Skaven idea...let's not forget there is now a Lizardmen Temple City on Albion of all places. Let's not forget that Mazdamundi can part an ocean if he wishes.
Skaven and Lizardmen are natural enemies and would be a natural pairing. How to get from Lustria to Skavenblight though? Well, there is a network of tunnels and there are plenty of 'land' sites. They'd likely start in Lustria (where, let's not forget there is a High Elf colony as well as the Norse settlement of Skeggi and the pirate town Port Reaver). Quetza would be a good starting area as that is where the Skaven plague originally started in Lustria, leading perhaps to Hexoatl or across the ocean to Skavenblight through the tunnels. Fortresses for them? Not too certain for skaven but the natural one for Lizardmen is Hexoatl. Heck, if they go with the capital cities for each race idea Hexoatl would be beautiful...Mazdamundi as a final city boss....oh my.
Skaven
Tank - Stormvermin. Make them real team players, even more so than Chosen with buffs that stack with numbers. Perhaps scaling damage and defense based on the number of people around them to show the whole Skaven courage in numbers approach?
Melee DPS - Clan Eshin Assassin/Gutter Runner. Melee DPS with stealth and poisons. Make them fast. Very, very fast. They are the Skaven ninja after all.
Ranged DPS - Grey Seers - Perhaps a 'Warpstone' mechanic. Increased damage at a cost of decreased resistances or cast times. Perhaps a ranged mix of Slayer/Choppa and Sorcerers. A nice spell for them would be the game's first true 'teleport'. Give them Skitterleap!
Support/Healer - To be fun and different.... Clan Moulder Beastmaster. The heals would be warpstone infusions. Perhaps give them a buff/debuff mechanic for the heals (each heal has a buff and a debuff, making it a balancing act) and instead of damage...PETS.
Capital City/Keep - Skavenblight. City Boss - Verminlord, Greater Daemon of the Horned Rat. Plenty of opportunity for cameo fluff appearances from Sniktch, Ikit Claw, Thanquol and others....
Mount- Either some sort of technological device or perhaps have them go into Scurry-mode i.e. drop down to all fours and run as fast as they can!
Racial Trait - Increased Morale Gain and Loss. Skaven are easily excitable but panic just as quick. Also, increased speed. Skaven are fast!
Lizardmen
Tank - Saurus Guardian. Effectively a Temple Guard, tweaked to fit with MMO mechanics as they can't hold quite true to fluff. Give them a similar 'numbers' effect as Stormvermin but call it Phalanx Fighting or something to that effect. Very damage focused tanks where Stormvermin would be very defensive to show that Saurus are still bipedal alligators with tempers.
Melee DPS - NOT A KROXIGOR. Saurus Warrior. Give them a Frenzy mechanic and some resilience. Make them half-tanks.
Ranged DPS- Chameleon Skink. Stealth ranged DPS utilising poisons.
Support/Healer - Skink Priest. Effectively filling the same role as Archmages.
Capital City/Keep - Hexoatl. Lord Mazdamundi as the city boss with a sub-boss in the form of Kroq Gar and Grymloq.
Mounts - For Saurus - Cold Ones. For Skinks - Horned Ones (Think smaller, less heavily built Cold Ones).
Racial Traits- Decreased Morale Gain and Loss - Cold Blooded. Though Lizardmen take longer to react this can be a good thing. It's also a counterbalance to Skaven. Skaven will be able to spam morale abilities but won't really be able to store it up for a boss. Lizardmen may not really be able to spam but the waffle thing will never go away!
Saurus would have a naturally increased toughness.
Skinks would have a naturally decreased tougness but increased Initiative.
Other potential racial pairings and what they could bring?
Wood Elves and Beastmen, Bretonnians and Vampire Counts (this expansion would probably introduce Mounted Combat).
Make it so!
And also, from my own guild's (Umbral Retribution) forums on March 22nd, 2009
I have been thinking on these. There are some logical pairings if they want to dip into the lore and also a lot of character models already exist.
The pairings?
Wood Elves (Order) vs. Beastmen (Destruction)
Lizardmen (Order) vs. Skaven (Destruction)
Bretonnians (Order) vs. Vampire Counts/Undead (Destruction)
Let's carry on further with this. As we know we need some sort of storyline for them to go down. Maps, zones, perhaps even cities (but first put the main racial cities in, k?)
Athel Loren would be the setting for the WEs and Beasts. With the Oak of Ages/Court of Ariel as the WE city while they'd have to create something new and Morghur themed for the Beasts. As an idea for a dungeon (seeing as each pairing seems to have racial specific dungeons in some areas) - The Wildwood, with dungeon bosses including Coeddil and Drycha.
The Lizardmen are straightforward. Lustria would be the setting leading from Hexoatl down to Quetza (where the Skaven plagues first began). The capital cities would be Hexoatl and Skavenblight (Skavenblight being accessed through the Skaven tunnels). Ideas for racial specific dungeons include Chaqua (for the Skaven - possibly with Tehehauin as a dungeon lord) and Xahutec (because a Temple City with a trapped and contained daemonic rift is clearly dungeon material). A boss for Xahutec? Fateweaver seems logical here.
The Bretonnians are slightly trickier for me to work out (due to a lack of the Bretonnian book at hand). But the idea behind it? The Red Duke. Hmm. Actually. Aquitaine seems logical for the Undead for this - will develop this more when I get hold of a Bretonnian book.
But let's develop this more.
The racial pairings need classes. We all know the classes go Tank, Healer, Ranged DPS, Melee DPS. So let's give some ideas.
Wood Elves
Tank- Eternal Guard - 'Stance' tank - different stances giving different buffs for different weapon sets.
Healer- Spellsinger - Placed buff/debuff healer - static 'pets' that grant AoE buffs and debuffs. Not a damage dealer but a serious disruption class.
RDPS- Waywatcher - Stealth RDPS with combos/arrow types.
MDPS- Wardancer - Stance/combo. Fast but very fragile.
Beastmen
Tank- Bestigor - Summon-tank to show calling the brayherd, perhaps using pets and group buffs as a tank.
Healer- Shaman - Give stances, great weapon clubs as well. Very aggressive healer types
RDPS- Shaman-Magus - Spell combos, debuff heavy as well.
MDPS- Gor -Medium armor, perhaps Stealth for ambushes.
Lizardmen
Tank- Saurus Guardian - VERY group friendly tank, primarily defensive. A lot of buffs.
Healer- Skink Priest - The order Shaman. Small, ranged healers, very quick.
RDPS- Chameleon Skink - Stealth, poison using RDPS.
MDPS- Saurus Warrior - Make them 'half' tanks. Shields on MDPS? Heresy. But let them.
Skaven
Tank- Stormvermin - VERY group friendly, offensive based. Buffs based on number of people around them.
Healer- Beastmaster - Pet summon healers. Perhaps using a buff/debuff mechanic with the heals and buffs. Every one has a disadvantage, have to be smart to balance them out.
RDPS- Grey Seer - Very aggressive, similar to the berserk mechanic of Choppas and Slayers. More warpstone consumed the deadlier the damage but weaker resistances are. Perhaps even the same buff/debuff idea as the Beastmaster.
MDPS- Assassin. Stealth, quick, poison use, semi-ranged like Witchhunters.
Bretonnians
Tank- Grail Knight- Buff tanks, a tank that places buffs on teammates like Rune Priests and Zealots. Not healing, but buff tank.
Healer- Maiden - Semi-RDPS, group buff based.
RDPS- Squires - Very long range, spear users.
MDPS- Questing Knights - Great Weapon option, perhaps make them very buff heavy as well.
Vampire Counts
Tank - Blood Knight - Debuff heavy, VERY aggressive dps tank. Vampire.
Healer - Necromancer - Debuff heavy, pet summons.
RDPS- New lore class- similar to disciple - Vampire spellcaster, debuff heavy.
MDPS - Wight - Debuff heavy, medium armor, part-tanks like Saurus.
Let's go further.
Racial tactics and benefits.
Wood Elves - Stance and combo heavy classes - suitable tactics would be ones based on mobility and detaunts when hit. Perhaps a racial tactic that increases their speed natural. Yes, they will kite like es.
Beastmen -Combo and stances heavy again. - Mobility, perhaps a racial toughness increase or strength increase.
Lizardmen - Cold blooded - Decreased rate of Morale gain and vastly decreased rate of Morale loss - basically they would be able to store it up but it's very hard to lose. All about using the morale abilities at the right time.
Skaven - Cowardice - Increased rate of Morale gain, INCREASED rate of Morale loss- wouldn't be able to store it up but would be able to generate it fast. However it is easier to lose as well. Skaven can't store it up to fire co-ordinated T4s off.
Bretonnians - Racial absorb tactic or increased WP to show faith in the Lady.
Undead - Same as Bretonnians.
NOTE: The Bretonnian/Undead pairing would bring Mounted Combat into the game.
.....
Of course I am not envious of the position I am in now. I've decided to go ahead and develop the Lizardmen and Skaven. The Skaven are up for debate as there is so much potential variety but the Lizardmen everyone seems to gravitate toward my ideas for. I suppose being a Lizardman player on the tabletop for the past 12 years helps there, eh?
Coming next?
I scan some images in and start getting the basic outlines put down. I've already asked for help with getting the following...
The total numbers of tactics, abilities and morale abilities of all classes from 1 to 40.
The total number of 'racial' tactics of all classes within the total number.
A summary of the mastery trees of all classes - just to tell if it's the same across the board or varies. (Including tactics, morale abilities, effects etc.)
A busy man I shall be.
May the Old Ones guide your fates.
But enough of my grumbles. First I will put up the original posts that had people liking the ideas and inspired me to actually work a bit more on them. Bear in mind that I'm not a natural number-cruncher. These ideas will not include exact numbers though if someone would like to volunteer to assist when it gets to that, feel free!
So, on to the original posts.
From the Warhammer Online Official Forums on February 22nd, 2009. (Post No. 65)
Hmm. To be honest folks new races will come in pairings. If they come with new realms/storylines the better.
To go with the Lizardmen vs. Skaven idea...let's not forget there is now a Lizardmen Temple City on Albion of all places. Let's not forget that Mazdamundi can part an ocean if he wishes.
Skaven and Lizardmen are natural enemies and would be a natural pairing. How to get from Lustria to Skavenblight though? Well, there is a network of tunnels and there are plenty of 'land' sites. They'd likely start in Lustria (where, let's not forget there is a High Elf colony as well as the Norse settlement of Skeggi and the pirate town Port Reaver). Quetza would be a good starting area as that is where the Skaven plague originally started in Lustria, leading perhaps to Hexoatl or across the ocean to Skavenblight through the tunnels. Fortresses for them? Not too certain for skaven but the natural one for Lizardmen is Hexoatl. Heck, if they go with the capital cities for each race idea Hexoatl would be beautiful...Mazdamundi as a final city boss....oh my.
Skaven
Tank - Stormvermin. Make them real team players, even more so than Chosen with buffs that stack with numbers. Perhaps scaling damage and defense based on the number of people around them to show the whole Skaven courage in numbers approach?
Melee DPS - Clan Eshin Assassin/Gutter Runner. Melee DPS with stealth and poisons. Make them fast. Very, very fast. They are the Skaven ninja after all.
Ranged DPS - Grey Seers - Perhaps a 'Warpstone' mechanic. Increased damage at a cost of decreased resistances or cast times. Perhaps a ranged mix of Slayer/Choppa and Sorcerers. A nice spell for them would be the game's first true 'teleport'. Give them Skitterleap!
Support/Healer - To be fun and different.... Clan Moulder Beastmaster. The heals would be warpstone infusions. Perhaps give them a buff/debuff mechanic for the heals (each heal has a buff and a debuff, making it a balancing act) and instead of damage...PETS.
Capital City/Keep - Skavenblight. City Boss - Verminlord, Greater Daemon of the Horned Rat. Plenty of opportunity for cameo fluff appearances from Sniktch, Ikit Claw, Thanquol and others....
Mount- Either some sort of technological device or perhaps have them go into Scurry-mode i.e. drop down to all fours and run as fast as they can!
Racial Trait - Increased Morale Gain and Loss. Skaven are easily excitable but panic just as quick. Also, increased speed. Skaven are fast!
Lizardmen
Tank - Saurus Guardian. Effectively a Temple Guard, tweaked to fit with MMO mechanics as they can't hold quite true to fluff. Give them a similar 'numbers' effect as Stormvermin but call it Phalanx Fighting or something to that effect. Very damage focused tanks where Stormvermin would be very defensive to show that Saurus are still bipedal alligators with tempers.
Melee DPS - NOT A KROXIGOR. Saurus Warrior. Give them a Frenzy mechanic and some resilience. Make them half-tanks.
Ranged DPS- Chameleon Skink. Stealth ranged DPS utilising poisons.
Support/Healer - Skink Priest. Effectively filling the same role as Archmages.
Capital City/Keep - Hexoatl. Lord Mazdamundi as the city boss with a sub-boss in the form of Kroq Gar and Grymloq.
Mounts - For Saurus - Cold Ones. For Skinks - Horned Ones (Think smaller, less heavily built Cold Ones).
Racial Traits- Decreased Morale Gain and Loss - Cold Blooded. Though Lizardmen take longer to react this can be a good thing. It's also a counterbalance to Skaven. Skaven will be able to spam morale abilities but won't really be able to store it up for a boss. Lizardmen may not really be able to spam but the waffle thing will never go away!
Saurus would have a naturally increased toughness.
Skinks would have a naturally decreased tougness but increased Initiative.
Other potential racial pairings and what they could bring?
Wood Elves and Beastmen, Bretonnians and Vampire Counts (this expansion would probably introduce Mounted Combat).
Make it so!
And also, from my own guild's (Umbral Retribution) forums on March 22nd, 2009
I have been thinking on these. There are some logical pairings if they want to dip into the lore and also a lot of character models already exist.
The pairings?
Wood Elves (Order) vs. Beastmen (Destruction)
Lizardmen (Order) vs. Skaven (Destruction)
Bretonnians (Order) vs. Vampire Counts/Undead (Destruction)
Let's carry on further with this. As we know we need some sort of storyline for them to go down. Maps, zones, perhaps even cities (but first put the main racial cities in, k?)
Athel Loren would be the setting for the WEs and Beasts. With the Oak of Ages/Court of Ariel as the WE city while they'd have to create something new and Morghur themed for the Beasts. As an idea for a dungeon (seeing as each pairing seems to have racial specific dungeons in some areas) - The Wildwood, with dungeon bosses including Coeddil and Drycha.
The Lizardmen are straightforward. Lustria would be the setting leading from Hexoatl down to Quetza (where the Skaven plagues first began). The capital cities would be Hexoatl and Skavenblight (Skavenblight being accessed through the Skaven tunnels). Ideas for racial specific dungeons include Chaqua (for the Skaven - possibly with Tehehauin as a dungeon lord) and Xahutec (because a Temple City with a trapped and contained daemonic rift is clearly dungeon material). A boss for Xahutec? Fateweaver seems logical here.
The Bretonnians are slightly trickier for me to work out (due to a lack of the Bretonnian book at hand). But the idea behind it? The Red Duke. Hmm. Actually. Aquitaine seems logical for the Undead for this - will develop this more when I get hold of a Bretonnian book.
But let's develop this more.
The racial pairings need classes. We all know the classes go Tank, Healer, Ranged DPS, Melee DPS. So let's give some ideas.
Wood Elves
Tank- Eternal Guard - 'Stance' tank - different stances giving different buffs for different weapon sets.
Healer- Spellsinger - Placed buff/debuff healer - static 'pets' that grant AoE buffs and debuffs. Not a damage dealer but a serious disruption class.
RDPS- Waywatcher - Stealth RDPS with combos/arrow types.
MDPS- Wardancer - Stance/combo. Fast but very fragile.
Beastmen
Tank- Bestigor - Summon-tank to show calling the brayherd, perhaps using pets and group buffs as a tank.
Healer- Shaman - Give stances, great weapon clubs as well. Very aggressive healer types
RDPS- Shaman-Magus - Spell combos, debuff heavy as well.
MDPS- Gor -Medium armor, perhaps Stealth for ambushes.
Lizardmen
Tank- Saurus Guardian - VERY group friendly tank, primarily defensive. A lot of buffs.
Healer- Skink Priest - The order Shaman. Small, ranged healers, very quick.
RDPS- Chameleon Skink - Stealth, poison using RDPS.
MDPS- Saurus Warrior - Make them 'half' tanks. Shields on MDPS? Heresy. But let them.
Skaven
Tank- Stormvermin - VERY group friendly, offensive based. Buffs based on number of people around them.
Healer- Beastmaster - Pet summon healers. Perhaps using a buff/debuff mechanic with the heals and buffs. Every one has a disadvantage, have to be smart to balance them out.
RDPS- Grey Seer - Very aggressive, similar to the berserk mechanic of Choppas and Slayers. More warpstone consumed the deadlier the damage but weaker resistances are. Perhaps even the same buff/debuff idea as the Beastmaster.
MDPS- Assassin. Stealth, quick, poison use, semi-ranged like Witchhunters.
Bretonnians
Tank- Grail Knight- Buff tanks, a tank that places buffs on teammates like Rune Priests and Zealots. Not healing, but buff tank.
Healer- Maiden - Semi-RDPS, group buff based.
RDPS- Squires - Very long range, spear users.
MDPS- Questing Knights - Great Weapon option, perhaps make them very buff heavy as well.
Vampire Counts
Tank - Blood Knight - Debuff heavy, VERY aggressive dps tank. Vampire.
Healer - Necromancer - Debuff heavy, pet summons.
RDPS- New lore class- similar to disciple - Vampire spellcaster, debuff heavy.
MDPS - Wight - Debuff heavy, medium armor, part-tanks like Saurus.
Let's go further.
Racial tactics and benefits.
Wood Elves - Stance and combo heavy classes - suitable tactics would be ones based on mobility and detaunts when hit. Perhaps a racial tactic that increases their speed natural. Yes, they will kite like es.
Beastmen -Combo and stances heavy again. - Mobility, perhaps a racial toughness increase or strength increase.
Lizardmen - Cold blooded - Decreased rate of Morale gain and vastly decreased rate of Morale loss - basically they would be able to store it up but it's very hard to lose. All about using the morale abilities at the right time.
Skaven - Cowardice - Increased rate of Morale gain, INCREASED rate of Morale loss- wouldn't be able to store it up but would be able to generate it fast. However it is easier to lose as well. Skaven can't store it up to fire co-ordinated T4s off.
Bretonnians - Racial absorb tactic or increased WP to show faith in the Lady.
Undead - Same as Bretonnians.
NOTE: The Bretonnian/Undead pairing would bring Mounted Combat into the game.
.....
Of course I am not envious of the position I am in now. I've decided to go ahead and develop the Lizardmen and Skaven. The Skaven are up for debate as there is so much potential variety but the Lizardmen everyone seems to gravitate toward my ideas for. I suppose being a Lizardman player on the tabletop for the past 12 years helps there, eh?
Coming next?
I scan some images in and start getting the basic outlines put down. I've already asked for help with getting the following...
The total numbers of tactics, abilities and morale abilities of all classes from 1 to 40.
The total number of 'racial' tactics of all classes within the total number.
A summary of the mastery trees of all classes - just to tell if it's the same across the board or varies. (Including tactics, morale abilities, effects etc.)
A busy man I shall be.
May the Old Ones guide your fates.
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